Wednesday Words
To Go Where Your VisionPoints, a few inspiration points for you and your business.
Never write an advertisement which you wouldn’t want your family to read. You wouldn’t tell lies to your own wife. Don’t tell them to mine.
—David M. Ogilvy
‘Nuff said.
Grow and be well,
Kelly Erickson
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25 February 2009, 7:14 am
Interesting contrast/complement (?) to IttyBiz’s post about marketing: http://ittybiz.com/all-customers-are-liars/
Alex Fayle | Someday Syndrome’s last blog post…Discipline is not enough – by Isabel Joely Black
25 February 2009, 8:02 am
Alex,
Yes. I didn’t know what to make of that. I saw where she was going with it, but…
Let’s just say when I don’t like my friend’s hair, I’d rather tell her how much I like her skirt. Other than cleaning house before company comes (ho ho), I didn’t care for the presumptions.
Though I agree that selling (marketing) is a natural part of living (wait! I just said this somewhere recently…), I certainly hope that manipulations aren’t as natural a part of living as Naomi seems to imply.
Or I’m going to have to become a hermit.
I think Ogilvy was on to something here. Truth in advertising—whoa! What a concept!
Regards,
Kelly
25 February 2009, 8:19 am
@Kelly
Your comment on MwP was an aha moment for me – thanks for that.
And as well thank you for pinpointing what I didn’t agree with in Naomi’s post. The implication is that people are born manipulators *on purpose* – I agree that we all do it without thinking (often to be nice) but when someone does it on purpose I’m not a big fan and when someone who’s trying to get me to spend money does it then I get pissed off because I shouldn’t have to be manipulated into buying. Influenced yes. Manipulated, no.
Alex Fayle | Someday Syndrome’s last blog post…Girls Aloud give us all a kick in the pants
25 February 2009, 8:34 am
‘Zactly. Help me discover whether we’re a fit for each other. Even show me that we are.
But shoehorn me in with deception on any level? No thanks.
Then it’s not about the Customer Experience anymore, is it? It’s about the Owner’s Wallet. Icky.
Until later,
Kelly
25 February 2009, 8:47 am
@Alex and Kelly
Funny, how there are some marketing-related blogs which are full of Eff this, Eff that. And it apparently seems to be accepted by everyone.
Obviously, not everyone agrees with David M. Ogilvy.
25 February 2009, 10:53 am
@Kelly
What’s up with your Comment Luv? It missed my last post, and referred to Alex’s old post from a month ago.
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 10:55 am
Oh, see? NOW it works again!
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 1:31 pm
Friar,
Some people’s families speak like that, I suspect. So then you are following Mr. Ogilvy’s advice, sort of.
There’s one that I do, that wasn’t on Naomi’s list. I swear more when I’m with friends than I do with family. Is that a manipulation of the truth? Because sometimes, it does bug me. I’m not going to start swearing in front of my kid to fix the inconsistency, but sometimes I do wonder about it.
Hey, I thought you couldn’t get to MCE anymore during Factory hours?
Darn it. I’m taking my own post off-topic.
Until later,
Kelly
25 February 2009, 1:31 pm
Friar – I think you were lying about that comment love thing!
Todd Smith’s last blog post…What frame do you like on this print for a bathroom wall?
25 February 2009, 1:32 pm
Todd—LOL. He’s just trying to hijack the comments.
25 February 2009, 1:38 pm
Kelly – Yeah, I know. I just called him on it on his blog. But then, I can’t lie. It’s more fun and exciting to get hi-jacked!
Todd Smith’s last blog post…What frame do you like on this print for a bathroom wall?
25 February 2009, 2:29 pm
@Kelly
Well, to be honest, (er…to put it tactfully), I did NOT agree with Naomi’s post…But that’s just my opinion.
As for commenting here today. Well…today’s SPECIAL.
Because I’m off sick.
(“Cough cough”).
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 2:34 pm
@Todd and Kelly (and Brett, when he shows up).
Check this out. It’s an AWESOME link!
http://images.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=20+foot+inflatable+gorilla&btnG=Search+Images
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 2:40 pm
ROFL!!!
That says it perfectly! Still laughing!
Tower, this is Delta 2387, we have been forced to fly off course!
Hope you’re feeling better, Friar.
Todd Smith’s last blog post…What frame do you like on this print for a bathroom wall?
25 February 2009, 2:43 pm
@Todd
Well, of course, the gorilla link wouldn’t be complete, without THIS one…
http://images.google.ca/images?q=inflatable%20banana&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 2:49 pm
HAH! Very satisfying, indeed!
Todd Smith’s last blog post…What frame do you like on this print for a bathroom wall?
25 February 2009, 2:55 pm
Friar,
No, I didn’t agree with it—because I sure hope I don’t behave like that.
A might =B, but if you don’t like A, then that’s not a helpful argument. But I saw where she was going with it.
Oh, sorry you’re sick again. The winter of 08–09 isn’t treating you well. Feel better.
ROFL at the links.
Stealth hijacking!
Later,
Kelly
25 February 2009, 3:09 pm
I’m not supposed to tell lies to my wife?
(Uh-oh. You mean I have to tell her I’m not an international spy? Once she finds out I’m just a lowly engineer, she’ll leave me for sure…)
I’ll be back later with some comments about the “other post” that says all customers are liars, because I don’t agree with it at all.
I can’t get to the site because it is blocked here… and I don’t want to misquote it, otherwise I’d be a LIAR
Oh, and swearing with your friends is okay, even mandatory when you’re with your Viking buddy. They’re just words, and sometimes “bad words” are appropriate in some places, and sometimes they are not.
25 February 2009, 3:14 pm
@Brett
Yeah…what better way to attract customers, than to openly insult them?
(Unless they’re masochistic or something, and are into that kind of treatment!)
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 3:17 pm
Brett,
Heh. Well I wasn’t thinking of stopping swearing, just that once in a while I think it’s a bit hypocritical that I’m careful with my language in front of the kid.
She probably knows more bad words than I do anyway. *sigh*
Later,
Kelly
25 February 2009, 3:23 pm
@Kelly
If I’m accused of being a hypocrite because I watch my language around young kids, then so be it.
I’d much prefer that…than to have termimal Potty-Mouth and be unable to utter two sentences without using the Eff word.
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 3:34 pm
I sometimes think I have a split personality about swearing. Professional situations, kids, parents… it’s like I never heard of swearing. Friends… enemies…
a bit of a truck driver. Ah, well.
Lying, though, I hate that in all situations.
*brings conversation back around to Mr. Ogilvy*
25 February 2009, 3:42 pm
I agree with Friar. I’d rather express myself without the potty mouth… actually I find that swear words are used either because I’m angry or because I’m trying to impress someone who uses them. In either case, I think I’m just as well off without them.
Todd Smith’s last blog post…What frame do you like on this print for a bathroom wall?
25 February 2009, 3:48 pm
Here in Spain there are no swear words. Unlike the French or English religious or excremental/sexual words aren’t used in a taboo manner. It’s like saying darn or dagnabbit – they think the soft swear words are hilarious.
Back to Ogilvy…
I tell my English language students that the international language of marketing is English because we can say things in English that aren’t technically lies that in another language that’s less metaphorical would be a definite lie.
English is a very grey language (ie not black and white in meaning).
Alex Fayle | Someday Syndrome’s last blog post…Discipline is not enough – by Isabel Joely Black
25 February 2009, 4:37 pm
I guess it’s cultural too, as Alex says. I don’t necessarily think it is hypocritical to cuss with your friends but not in front of your kids or at church. It’s just different behaviours for different locations.
We don’t pull down our pants and go potty in our offices, but we do it in the washroom. That does not make us hypocrites.
Now… telling your kids not to cuss, and then cussing in front of them – that would be different of course.
Anyway…
Back to the subject at hand. Let me grab the ending quote and use it for illustrative purposes:
“As a marketer, I can be FINED AND JAILED for lying. You can do it whenever you feel like it. I have to creatively highlight the good points of my product while deftly redirecting concerns about the bad points.
You are under no such obligation. You can just lie.
So maybe it’s time to get off the fucking high horse about marketers manipulating the truth.”
And your point is… empty. Because…
“As a NUCLEAR ENGINEER, I can be FINED AND JAILED for lying about NUCLEAR POWER. You can do it whenever you feel like it. I have to creatively highlight the good points of my product while deftly redirecting concerns about the bad points.
You are under no such obligation. You can just lie about NUCLEAR POWER.
So maybe it’s time to get off the fucking high horse about marketers manipulating the truth about NUCLEAR POWER.”
See my point? The person who went on the rant about everyone being a liar and then telling us that she can’t because she’s a marketer, and that it isn’t fair that we can and we should get off of our high horses is…
Well, put it this way – too bad. That’s your chosen profession. Thus, in my mind, you just gave up some of your rights to free speech or opinion or whatever. You don’t like it? Tough.
Or, another way – you as a marketer can lie all you like about things not related to marketing or anything at all behind closed doors, just like I can blow smoke up your butt about things not related to what I do, or if I want to gossip about what I do, it had better not be within earshot of someone who can get me fired.
Do people who get all sensitive like this have something to hide? Maybe not, but come on – me not ordering a beer when I’m having a lunch interview because I want to impress the potential employer is NOT the same thing as snake oil marketing.
If we’re always supposed to be ourselves 100 percent and not conceal anything, should we immediately tell every new person we meet every single bad thing we’ve ever done?
Because, if we don’t – WE’RE LIARS!!!
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
25 February 2009, 4:38 pm
(in the second quote last line ‘marketers’ switch to NUCLEAR ENGINEERS’ but you got the point… I was typing too fast…)
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
25 February 2009, 6:38 pm
@Brett
Come on. It’s time you got off our Effing high horse. Accept the fact that we lowly customers, the unwashed masses, are all just LIARS.
We should strive to be like the righteous marketers, who are above and beyond such human vices.
(Of course, when I say this…I’m just LYING!)
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 6:53 pm
(*raises hand*)
Um…what if someone sets a price on their product. And tells me to buy right now, because the price will soon DOUBLE?
Say I don’t like these type of sales tactics.
Do I have a right to question this?
Or should I just get off my high horse, because I’m just a LIAR?
(…just askin’…that’s all)
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 7:12 pm
@Kelly
(*okay, bringing conversation back to Ogilvy*).
Wonder what he was like in REAL life? If he stubbed his toe, did he must mutter “Fiddle dee Dee?”.
Somehow, I doubt it.
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 9:39 pm
Alex,
I’m a big fan of dagnabbit. Ask my kid. Hokey but true.
Brett,
I have to say there is no way I’m telling everyone, every single bad thing I’ve ever done.
Come to think of it, I doubt I’ve ever told anyone, every single bad thing…
My basic beef with the post is that I don’t think everyone’s a liar. As I said earlier, A might =B, but if the premise of A is bad, then the equation falls apart. At least for me.
Friar,
Amen.
And no, if he stabbed his toe, he said “Consarnit.”
Doesn’t everyone?
Later,
Kelly
25 February 2009, 9:47 pm
Kelly,
Exactly. If I did that, I’d be arrested. Guaranteed.
Neither do I believe everyone’s a liar – the world is full of a lot of good people.
Tomorrow’s word is “Consarnit”. Everyone has to use the word at least three times. Toe stabbing is optional, of course.
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
25 February 2009, 9:54 pm
Tomorrow’s word: Better watch out or I’ll try to take you up on that. Just to be a rabble-rouser at other people’s blogs.
Oh, and if your youth was anything like mine (hope it was mostly milder)… I think there’s a statute of limitations on most all of our… impish misdeeds.
25 February 2009, 9:55 pm
LOL. Stubbed. I was wondering where you got that from!
25 February 2009, 9:58 pm
I’m so there.
I’ll even use it at work.
(I caught myself almost using “frak” in a meeting – I’m a Battlestar Galactica fan, and they use “frak” for… well, you know. But since it isn’t a “real bad word” they don’t have to bleep it.)
I liked stabbed better, because if you can say “Consarnit” after stabbing your toe, you’re a pretty tough hombre or senorita.
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
25 February 2009, 10:04 pm
“Consarnit” and “Dagnabbit”.
Hello. The year 1873 just called. They’d like their swear words back.
Land Sakes.
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 10:07 pm
Here with the nearly-10-year-old, I use “bugger” for that particular real bad word.
Whenever I’m not using “consarnit,” that is.
It occurs to me that she probably knows every bad word that was ever used by John Wayne or Gary Cooper on film. We’re a little old-fashioned here—and if Friar’s not listening I’ll tell you that I think it’s a good thing.
25 February 2009, 10:08 pm
ROFL, Friar was typing underneath me.
25 February 2009, 10:09 pm
Yea verily. We shall pistol whip them and retrieve our cuss words.
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
25 February 2009, 10:11 pm
The other day I heard one of my 4-year olds telling the “bloody cat” to “leave his bleedin’ food alone”.
Hmm… guess I shouldn’t fix things when my kids are around, eh? Well, at least it was only that!
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
25 February 2009, 10:15 pm
Brett—”bloody,” too. I’d blame the BBC, but my father used to say that one. Oh, he had some gems.
25 February 2009, 10:24 pm
“bloody” was a more serious curse in the 1500′s, in Shakespeare’s time.
I remember my High School English. We studied King Henry IV Part I (…now, wasn’t THAT exciting?)
I remember seeing the word “s’blood” a lot. (Meaning God’s blood). That was apparently a BAD thing to say, back then.
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 10:26 pm
@Kelly
Oh, I also once got lectured by my Chemistry teacher for saying “Bugger” in class. He made me look it up in the dictionary. And well…you know…
@#$*!! Seems you can’t say ANYTHING anymore!
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 10:29 pm
fn’ a
Oh, and also, some random thoughts.
Marketing isn’t about lying so much as showing a product or service in the best light. Sometimes in our eagerness, we cross a line. Hopefully we catch it before it goes live.
It’s like Size 0 women on magazine covers, all airbrushed and coked out. Sells magazines, right? But is it the right image? Is there a line that’s crossed in our representation of the ideal because not everyone can reach it? Should magazines — or any other private company — worry about that line?
We all want to look our best. Our clients/employers want us to make them look their best. Is that a bad thing?
A clean house makes your visitors feel more comfortable. Very few of us live like that all the time. We all know that. It’s a social grace that helps us stay social.
fn’ a
~Graham
Graham Strong’s last blog post…5 Steps To Better Brainstorming for the Intrepid Freelancer and Independent Business Owner
25 February 2009, 10:35 pm
By the way…
Who WAS David M. Ogilvy?
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
25 February 2009, 11:04 pm
Whoa! This post sure got some comments! I’m willing to bet this lying thing has got everybody nervous. I bet you’re all liars! Admit it. Why else would someone get so animated over a silly little quote?
Todd Smith’s last blog post…What frame do you like on this print for a bathroom wall?
26 February 2009, 5:45 am
Of course, no discussion concerning liars would be complete without a Henry Rollins video…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vgQalXaIxs&feature=related
Heh heh…
26 February 2009, 6:45 am
Graham,
Ooh, I haven’t heard fn’a since high school. Good one!
Yes, I think we should worry about the line. I agree about presenting things in their best light. Naomi described that as manipulation, and compared it flatteringly to out-and-out lying, which bugged me all around.
But you know, she still made me think… are phrases like “present it in its best light” and “social graces” just ways around thinking of ourselves as manipulators and liars? Hm, hm.
(Speaking of worrying about images no one can achieve—In Spain, they have a rule that models must have at least a certain BMI in order to participate in runway shows. It’s a start.)
Friar,
I believe bloody’s still quite a reasonable curse word across the pond. It’s short for “by Our Lady,” or so I’ve been told, which means it fits right in with the tradition of all the Quebeçois cursing you grew up with.
And don’t they have Google or Yahoo up there for you to look these folks up, lol? David Ogilvy is (was) The Dean of Modern Advertising. A real genius. In the eighties he wrote a couple of the most famous books on the subject ever, and he’s still a great read.
Todd,
We’re all liars, but shh—we’re learning not to tell our clients.
Later,
Kelly
26 February 2009, 7:05 am
@Kelly
Even America’s Top Model got into the not-too-skinny act by having their designers point out that they go for a size 4 generally and that a 2 will fit into the clothes if they want a baggy look, but size 0 is now banned from Spain, Italy and the UK.
And yes, that Naomi can make us say “no way!” but she does get us thinking about certain subjects, eh?
Alex Fayle | Someday Syndrome’s last blog post…Everybody wants to be a (Lab) Rat
26 February 2009, 7:59 am
@Alex and Kelly
I always wondered WHO finds those anorexic fashion models so attractive.
It certainly isn’t us GUYS (at least, most guys I know aren’t attracted by the concentration-camp-victim-sunken look). I wish those models would gain 10 pounds. Or 20.
And it certainly isn’t the WOMEN (at least, the normal women I know who will never achieve these unrealistic body proportions, and never fit into those clothes).
So WHO, then….decided that models have to look that way? WHO perpetuates this myth?
It’s a conspiracy, I tells ya. A CONSPIRACY!
PS. Kelly, I COULD have looked it up Ogilvy on Google. But I’m lazy, and prefer to get the brief version from my own Kelli-Pedia!
26 February 2009, 8:13 am
Of course I’m a LIAR (watch the video…)
26 February 2009, 8:14 am
@Kelly – Yes, it is “lying” in the strictest sense. Is it fine to pretend to your kids that yes, Virginia was right or that pretend you swear less than you do? I think so, because the truth is that we want to give them all the happiness in the world and the truth is, I don’t feel comfortable swearing in front of my kids (as much…)
Besides, maybe I don’t want to tell you the truth about why I missed worked Thursday and my little operation. I could tell you the “truth” that it is none of your business, or be nice and thankful for your concern and say that I wasn’t feeling well.
(Didn’t Three’s Company have a whole episode devoted to only telling the truth…?)
@Friar – I don’t know if the rakish models are meant to be sexy so much as “chic”. I certainly don’t find that look attractive. And I’m not sure if I could handle “hanging out” with someone I weighed twice as much as…
~Graham
Graham Strong’s last blog post…5 Steps To Better Brainstorming for the Intrepid Freelancer and Independent Business Owner
26 February 2009, 1:50 pm
Alex,
My kid, a normal-weight, 4’10″ nine-year-old, can’t even fit into a women’s 0. The thought of a full-grown adult wearing those clothes makes me faint. I didn’t know ANTM had made that sort of statement, but I think that’s fabulous. And I’m obviously behind on my modeling news, as I thought the UK was still only in the “we’re thinking about it” stage. Good for them, too.
Friar,
Kelli-pedia at your service, then. Always glad to oblige.
Brett,
Oh, dear, Rollins. I’m frightened to click on the video. But okay…
Whew. I’ve seen it before but I’d forgotten. He tells it like it (sometimes) is but with blinders on. Dark, sad blinders.
Graham,
Whaddya mean? Virginia was right!
*smiles her Pollyanna smile*
Later,
Kelly
26 February 2009, 2:12 pm
I would extend that to ‘never write a blog which you wouldn’t want your family to read’. I rate all my posts using this philosophy. It keeps me honest and real.
As for swearing, a wonderful and dear old man said to me once, “a man swears because he is not intelligent enough to come up with real words to express himself”. I was told that almost fifteen years ago, and it still comes to mind when I hear or read a string of words.
Urban Panther’s last blog post…Leaving words behind
26 February 2009, 3:01 pm
Late to the party.
Everyone is a liar. No one can live in pure, absolute truth every day. We lie to our kids. We lie to our spouses and partners. We lie to our friends. We lie to co-workers, peers and employers. We lie to employees.
We lie to ourselves.
AND THAT’S OKAY. This is human nature, and no person on this earth is above that.
As to the post at Naomi’s blog on Ittybiz (come on, guys, geez), while I don’t agree with everything she says, she’s essentially right. People should quit pointing the finger out and start pointing it in the mirror.
Now. I shall quietly wait for the masses to spike me, mace me and come after me with pitchforks and gasoline, and I shall calmly meet the opposition with diplomacy. Have at it.
James Chartrand – Men with Pens’s last blog post…The Secrets to Writing Really Great Website Content
26 February 2009, 3:07 pm
@James – Wow! And all that without a single swear word *grin* Yes, I agree, we all lie to some degree. Yes, it is human nature. But if I have a product to sell, I will not lie. Maybe that means I’ll never be able to sell a product. So be it. And I do not lie in my blog. Ever. It serves no purpose. I do not lie in my comments to other blogs. I used to lie all the time to try and be ‘a pleaser’ and to avoid conflict. Psshhhhh … exhausting and never worked. Now, what you see is what you get. No lying, just the raw Panther.
Urban Panther’s last blog post…Leaving words behind
26 February 2009, 3:34 pm
@James – No mace here — I actually agree with you. Reading Naomi in that piece strikes me like she had a run-in with someone and was blowing off steam. “Let ye who has never sinned…”
The fact is, there are “strict” definitions of lying and “loose” ones. As I said above, do you refrain from swearing around your kids because the truth is that you don’t want them to know you swear (which is lying, strictly) or that you don’t think they should be exposed to swearing at a young age (which is not lying, loosely)?
When it comes to human morals, there are no “truths” and “lies”, only differences of opinions. But if you try to measure them in absolutes anyway, you’re going to run into trouble.
I think that’s what’s happened here (though again, I think we should take the rant with a big grain of salt…)
~Graham
Graham Strong’s last blog post…5 Steps To Better Brainstorming for the Intrepid Freelancer and Independent Business Owner
26 February 2009, 3:43 pm
@ Grant – That’s it exactly. Shamwow to that.
@ Panther – I never swear when I’m wearing my Armani Suit of Diplomacy. Now, when I’m in jeans and a baseball cap…’nother story.
James Chartrand – Men with Pens’s last blog post…The Secrets to Writing Really Great Website Content
26 February 2009, 4:15 pm
@James – lol Shamwow indeed.
~Graham
Graham Strong’s last blog post…5 Steps To Better Brainstorming for the Intrepid Freelancer and Independent Business Owner
26 February 2009, 4:43 pm
@James,
No pitchforks here. My weapon of choice is polonium-210. I’d say ask Alexander Litvinenko about it, but he can’t talk anymore…
Sure Naomi’s right, everyone lies, and I’m guessing she was upset by some people saying that marketers are liars, and so she wrote that. Obviously not all marketers are liars.
The leap she took at the end was perhaps what made some people say “huh?”
See, it’s like this – if you’re a marketer and you lie about what you’re marketing, you can go to jail. If I lie to my kids and tell them I don’t swear, I won’t be put in jail. That doesn’t make me a hypocrite, that’s just the way life is. My kids might not respect me, but that’s another story.
I can say on this blog that I have a bomb in my suitcase, and nothing will happen (note to CIA – I don’t have a bomb in my suitcase). If I say it at the airport, I go to jail, just as it should be.
If you tell your co-workers that you think nuclear power is a sham, Harry might agree, and Charlie and Tei might not – but nothing will happen to you. If I do it, I could get fired and could go to jail.
See? I know she’s right about everyone being a liar, but I still think it is apples and oranges when taken to extremes.
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
26 February 2009, 4:44 pm
Panther,
Oh, yes. Though it hasn’t happened in a year and a half, I still picture my parents wandering in here one day, and I make sure every single post can stand up to that scrutiny.
Clients reading the blog are good for that, too, and if all else fails, I know The Kid likes to poke her head in here now and then. So honest, forthright, and good clean business is what I serve up here.
fn’a.
James,
I would just like to point out that It’s All Alex’s Fault.
And I gave my humble opinion on what she (Naomi) wrote ^^ up there somewhere, so now I’ll simply say that I’ve enjoyed the resulting conversation, unexpected though it’s been.
& consarnit, I hate baseball caps.
(Brett, that’s three—I even managed it on a field trip with The Kid this morning!)
Graham,
Nossir. You’ll have to trust me on this one, maybe. There are definitely lies. That haven’t got anything to do with differences of opinion.
Not what Mr. Ogilvy was thinking of, perhaps, but yeah. Real lies exist.
Later,
Kelly
26 February 2009, 5:11 pm
@Brett – I think nuclear power is shamwow.
(I also think nuclear has an invisible second ‘u’ that you pronounce, but that’s another story…)
@Kelly – Certainly *lies* can be immoral. But I’m talking about something different. What I deem to be as “morally right” doesn’t make it empirically so. Not swearing in front of kids, for example. This doesn’t make me a “liar” because I choose not to do it, or a manipulator by leading you to believe I don’t swear at all simply because I don’t swear in front of children. Those are my morals, and if someone chooses to put a measuring stick next to them to find some empirical truth, he or she will come up empty.
There is an exception, and that would be when two (or more) people mutually agree on a set of morals. For example, if you are dating someone, perhaps you both come to the agreement that you don’t date other people. Breaking that agreement and then lying about it — well there is certainly a level of trust being breached there.
But by the same token, if both agree to see other people as well, outsiders can’t say “that’s wrong” because it goes against their own morals.
So yes, I suppose there are truth and lies in morals. But those morals have to be mutually agreed upon first.
fn’a
~Graham
Graham Strong’s last blog post…5 Steps To Better Brainstorming for the Intrepid Freelancer and Independent Business Owner
26 February 2009, 5:18 pm
Aha. Perfectly clear now, thanks!
26 February 2009, 5:31 pm
@Graham,
In Soviet Russia, nuclear power thinks you are shamwow
@Kelly,
*Of course* it is All Alex’s Fault.
But I could be a liar.
Regardless of what you think, this has been fun and like a few have pointed out, it has been food for thought.
@James,
You have an Armani Suit of Diplomacy?
Shamwow, baby.
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
26 February 2009, 6:14 pm
Oh, this comment thread is getting too DEEP for me. The morality of lying, and social responsibilities, and such.
To paraphrase Schulze from Hogan’s Heroes.
“I…know…NUSSINK!!”
(Lah-lah-lah…running from the room, covering my ears). Lah-lah-lah.
Friar’s last blog post…Blogging Commenter Stereotypes
26 February 2009, 6:21 pm
@ Friar – Hey! Don’t go away! We were just getting to the best part…!
@ Brett – Not just ‘a’ Armani suit. THE Armani suit. I hang it beside my baseball cap collection, just below my favorite picture of Kelly. ‘Cuz I know she secretly likes them.
James Chartrand – Men with Pens’s last blog post…The Secrets to Writing Really Great Website Content
26 February 2009, 6:29 pm
@Friar,
Just watch the video, there’s an angry dude in orange paint.
@James,
Oh, *THE* Armani Suit – I see the difference
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
26 February 2009, 6:56 pm
James,
1. Please, Varvatos, dude. Not Armani.
2. Baseball caps belong on this gent. But only when he’s on his way in to the park. On game day. Otherwise, see #1.
3. I do *not* want to know what your favorite picture of me is.
Later,
Kelly
P.S. Friar, you’ve probably seen the vid too. It’s just been a long time. It has a great opening. Brett, have you read any of his stuff?
26 February 2009, 7:06 pm
@Kelly,
Yes, I have, and I’m guessing you have as well. He can be pretty dark for sure, but I’m not surprised given some of the stuff that’s happened to him. I suppose everyone would deal with that differently.
I still prefer Motorhead, though
Lemmy is much funnier…
So if you ever do a post about the military-industrial complex, I’ll post a link to Orgasmatron.
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
26 February 2009, 7:14 pm
*scratches “post about the military-industrial complex” off to-do list…*
26 February 2009, 7:17 pm
*dang*
Brett Legree’s last blog post…viking fridays – the mind and the heart.
3 March 2009, 11:57 am
How the heck did I miss this comment-fest? Consarnit! Just think of the nasty hi-jacking I could have done. I’m insulted I wasn’t invited to the party.
And as for lying. Brett is the worst! He has been wanting to play crazy-eights with me for 10 years but lies about it everytime I offer. What a cad.
Eyeteaguy
Did I make up for lost time?
Eyeteaguy’s last blog post…I’m tired
3 March 2009, 2:19 pm
Francis,
Yes, you did make up for lost time.
For the sake of my daughter and my clients, I think I’ve helped you clarify a bit.
Warmest,
Kelly
3 March 2009, 2:23 pm
@Kelly – I’m never going to be able to play Crazy Eights again…
lol
~Graham
Graham Strong’s last blog post…5 Steps To Better Brainstorming for the Intrepid Freelancer and Independent Business Owner
3 March 2009, 2:30 pm
Graham,
Me neither.
3 March 2009, 3:15 pm
Gosh, you sure know how to take the fun out of a thing.
Golly you are boring. Good grief you could try to liven it up a but.
Back when I was a mechanic we had a swearing jar because things were getting a little thick. We showed the versitility of %&#$ on a daily basis. It was a quarter for everytime you swore. It was etting a bit full buy week 3.
Then on a Monday I was putting the rings back on a cylinder head when the engine turned over trapping my finger. I sealed my lips but gadzuks did it hurt. After we freed my finger (45 minutes and a partial engine disassembly) I walked over to the swaer jar, dropped in a couple of bucks and let fly.
The swear jar dissapeared the next day to be replaced with a nice new coffee machine.
Fiddle-sticks, my finger still hurts thinking about it.
Eyeteaguy
P.S. My alltime favorite is “dirthy thumb stucker” all the hard constanants, none of the profanity.
Eyeteaguy’s last blog post…I’m tired
3 March 2009, 3:22 pm
I can’t spell.
That should read “Dirty thumb sucker” These comment pages need a spell checker….
Eyeteaguy’s last blog post…I’m tired
3 March 2009, 9:29 pm
Francis,
Thank goodness I know how to take the fun out of a thing!
Though for those who bravely came back and reread your comment here, I think I may have put the fun into the thing.
The looks you get if you’re brash enough to say some of the oldies nowadays make it worth keeping them in the arsenal. A loud “doggoneit” gets way more looks than a loud eff-word these days. So for shock factor, my money’s on the silly stuff. And none of it makes your finger feel any better, by gum.
Later,
Kelly